Відео

Yes and no. Majority of pilots would stall the 17 within couple of turns so its a quick win, an experienced pilot would knock you off quick (I was lucky but was also ducking the shots too). Also remember this was showing off some flight touchy dynamics of the MiG17, so its not necessarily indicative of a fight I'd have (its more fun, but when its for the marbles you fly your flight), but it is a situation you can end up in easy.

@@FSX404 awesome, thanks for the reply. Was genuinely curious.

Sounds like your nose down trim, or even the whole elevator trim at may not be working, I have no issues with the trim on the F-4

@@FSX404 and your elevators are moving outside when trimming ?? pls make a short vid with the given inputs and keybindings. thx

We have a contact that flew F-1s for the South African Air Force, he provided some perfomance data. In reality all these 3rd Gen planes are similar (+/-2 deg), F1 is just a Mirage III with better sustained and worse instantaneous turns, tho Mirage III has better high altitude perfomance. Theres a peak perfomance, and then a curve which is based on wing shape (mostly), wing loading, etc...

I've been an actual real plane pilot for 30 years, now stfu troll

Amazing stuff to share ❤️❤️

thanks, yeah, but got it slow at one point, went horizontal scissors in the F-4 at around 11:00 lol

This is a realistic dogfight, its what they looked like in Vietnam. I mean this is epic and not because I flew it, because even I say wow when I see it and cant believe it. Trailers are good, but we dont fly trailers, this is what a DCS pilot sees, so I always think its better to show what it can do rather than what it looks like from cool angles during sunrise or sunset 🤷‍♂️

Yeah i live the mig-19 when they look back and see me right behind them

@@treypeters1087 well, MiG19 is a bit OP in DCS, 19 shpuld end up about 1500 feet below F-4, as of now they are about even, 500 F-4 underpowered, and 1000 for 19 OP.

​@@FSX404Where do you get all this data?

@@Youda00008 fortunate to have some contacts who used to fly for Israeli IAF 40+ yrs ago. IAF studied all potential opponent planes in depth, and even had different tactics than other nations, remember they flew delta Mirages and Kfirs against 17s, 19s and 21s. These guys could tell you 17 would reach "this" altitude from 15k at 400 kts, 19 "this," 21 "this" in their sleep 40 yrs later. I wouldnt say all, but a lot of my flying is influenced by IAF 1960s tactics.

I recommend getting the F-4 up to 10k and putting yourself into a slow flight regime. Get slow enough to hear the AoA tone, drop flaps and gear, and cruise around like that for a while. Get a feel for the speed brake too. With all the drag on the airframe, you're behind the power curve and you'll need a lot of power to stay level. Also listen carefully to the engine. It has very distinct sounds at different RPMs. My current (and unvetted) rule of thumb is to stay above 80% RPM. If you feel the need to drop below 80% RPM, you've scuffed your approach. Go around.

@@wmouse Good advice. This is a thing to do with all aircraft to get a feel of slow speed. I figured it out now. This engine has to be run above 85%. Get on speed AOA on downwind, trim and control the rate of descent with the throttle. That is approach 101, but you have to be agressive on the throttles. The difficult things is judging descent rate (the vertical speed indicator on this thing sucks ) and nothing beats keeping your head outside the cockpit. If your descent rate gets too high (higher than 2000 fpm) you can get in trouble. Long finals for now.

You cant catch him in a 21, its like "dude, Im not coming to 36,000 feet" 🖐🤣

It's about as terrible as the P-51 is vs a A6M... fight with the plane's strengths and the F-4 has many over the MiGs. Maximum turn rate is overrated :P

Thank you, would you believe this was our first engagement (Talo and I), I practiced flying the F-4 for a day, and Talo never flew against the F-4. We just looked at the flight and said, this one is good, no need for others. Fight was like two fighters gaging each other, dipping our toes in a bit. It was awesome and we knew it as soon as we disengaged.

16.2 deg/sec at SL and combat weight of 4550 kg at 380 kts/700 kph, arpund 14 deg/sec at 15k, and around 6 deg/sec at 30k

@@FSX404 wow that’s much worse than I was imagining actually. Interesting considering the mig 15 and Sabre are both higher

@@kynanledee5089 I wouldnt rely on DCS F-86 and MiG15, they are not accurate. Shut the engine off on the 15 at 10k and glide, it takes 6 min to glide to the ground, it has almost no drag. F-86 is slightly more accurate. Even the F-16 and M2000 only get around 17 deg/sec.

@@FSX404 def think the 86 and mig-15 are a bit messed up but I’ve def seen about 20 from the m2k and about 18 from the viper

@@kynanledee5089 tacview is not accurate above 13 and below 10, you have to calculate it from true speed (or mach) and Gs pulled. Machbis also not accurate above 10k on tacview sobuse true speed. I pulled 17.1 on the F-16 and 17 on M2000 calculated. 17 will also show 18.5 on tacview. Turn rate is just acceleratin vs speed. So 17 is relative to F16 and M2000. This isbth calculator, you can try it on your own, make sure its level flight www.calculatoratoz.com/en/turn-rate-calculator/Calc-8559

Man, I owe you like 4 beers now 🤣. Thank you 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

@@FSX404 You betcha. When you begin reading SCREAM OF EAGLES, tell the world you will be "persona non grata" from 5 pm Friday to 7 am Monday. You will devour the knowledge in this book with no need for toothpicks or tape to keep your eyes open, and will forget to eat, drink, sleep and breathe. If the FM for the F-4 and 17 are accurate - I believe they are - then you will be able to apply everything in the book with incredible accuracy and TRULY fly and fight in the F-4 EXACTLY like our heroes did in Vietnam. Man, what a treat! After you read the book and re-watch this video, you will see you were a little behind the power/speed/energy curve by 50-100kts. Adding just a touch of energy to all maneuvers will result in much better results, not allowing the 17 to get as close as he did. But one thing GVad, do not tell Talo (17 pilot?) you are reading SCREAM OF EAGLEs, as he will compensate with another 30-50kts per maneuver to attempt to match you in the F-4. The book also reveals ALL THE MIG-17's WEAKNESSES (hint: loss of controls at "higher speeds). At 500 kts the 17 is "unable to turn/maneuver and at 500kts, the F-4 is just starting to "get good". F-4's in Vietnam easily saw 800+kts at treetop level. Even an F-16 cannot run away from a Phantom and at 1970-80's Red Flag, Eagles couldn't catch the Phantom on the deck. This is going to be EPIC. Again, due to your experience, patience, and maturity as an aviator, you will "keep your speed up" and fly the F-4 to its advantages, not bleeding/dumping all your energy for the quick kill, resulting in awesome dogfights and sheer dominance over the MIG-17. Christmas has come early. Cheers!

Careful what you wish for, its a dream and nightmare rolled into 1 😬

Exactly, but the Aim9B in DCS behave as Aim9J , you could lunch in a 40/60 degrees cone from the horizontal axis of the Tail, an average of 30 degrees of angle off. the Aim9J is outperform in DCS.

Only thing I think it's missing sadly is the AIM-9E. Some early, janky but upgraded winders would be damn fun.

J could be a possible missile, but its a little too good, the aquiring cone is a bit too wide, and it leads when flying. These missiles should be chasing the heat source, not predicting where it will be. I hope they dumb down the AiM9J so we can use it correctly.

@@FSX404 Just did a bit of digging, AIM-9J should be leading targets, especially considering that as early as AIM-9E uncaging was a feature of the missile. With Navy sidewinders that appeared with AIM-9D. Though as previously mentioned, AIM-9E would be a great addition.

the big problem is the aquiring cone, in that era you couldn't get a kill if the missile was lunched in this cone, normally is 40 degrees cone, this mean max 20/30 degrees angle off and of course depending the G-force that the bandit is pulling in that moment, a plane pulling 5 Gs and more than 20 degrees of angle off, that missile is a waste. in reality of course. in Flaklands war were more than 20 head to head merged and it wasn't a single kill from head to head with a Aim9L, always the manufacture will say that is better than it really is. in my opinion in DCS you need to limit the missile kills relative the aquiring cone, this will be awesome and enjoyable

Af far as I understood 17F wont have AA missiles

Unfortunatelly no AA missiles. Soviets did have a kit for upgrading the 17F to add AA missiles, but no country ever bought an upgrade kit other than rumors about Vietnam. We did our darnest best to find info on it, anything, and possibly add it in one form or another, but we found nothing official 🤷‍♂️. But in reality it would be like a 19 missile, R3 is really useless on it in a dogfight.

@@FSX404 17PFU would be nice. beam riders and still had guns. *slips a fiver

@@TheGranicd its a plane against bombers, carrying those bulky K-5 missiles. I saw some East German training videos on them and basically they snuck in behind a bomber by GCI and shot it down, guns or missiles.

@@FSX404 it would be great to have them because enigma is a different experience without any missiles

AI are OP and dont make mistakes so its hard to do vertical BFM, pilots are human overpull and lose energy, with F-4 ypu have to be patient and force it. MiG19 AI is great to practice against and get good for PvP

In DCS if you select the hardest AI difficulty, it buffs their EM performance to unrealistic levels, so that might be an issue as well.

​@@Youda00008 The AI defies the laws of physics. I saw a 5 G pull and ***negative*** AoA in TacView from an AI F-5.

Yes ypu can cage it, it has cage mode, AA mode, bombing mode, Im sure theres videos that explain the modes. Snapshots its probably better to cage, I wasnt thinking while flying tho I should have. F-4 should have a gun radar perhaps, but I dont know if its auto or you have to engage it (I was more focused on flying rather than learning the systems, my shortcoming unfortunately). But like any plane, with practice you get good at it, some guys are just awesome and will make those shots, myself Im not one of those 🤷‍♂️, I suck at shooting unfortunatelly.

Well, the 17 is accurate FM, its great but it also has accurate drags so you cant just pull it like in some other DCS planes. It will also depart easy at the edges, so you have to fly it exact. Talo makes it look easy but that is hundreds of hours of testing and flying. Even Col Tomb (whoever that experienced pilot was with mutiple kills) departed in his battle with Duke Cunningham.

@@FSX404 May i ask, how did you get hands on this Mig-17? Did the developers provide it to you as a youtuber for alpha testing?

@@Youda00008 Talo and I got together and created Red Star by bringing in devs and artists. So Im finally putting my "knowledge" where my mouth is lol. But I love DCS in general and am happy when theres any great plane out there, and I will say it no matter who develops it.

@@FSX404 😲 That's amazing. I wish you the best luck with that. Will definitely buy.